Episode 142: Congestion Pricing Is Finally Here 

 

Alex Duncan: We’re not fighting about a toll here. We’re fighting about the philosophical principle of whether cars should dominate the streetscape in this city. That’s the real fight. And I really think that this is the moment where that philosophical alignment and our sense of priorities is gonna change in the city.

Sarah Goodyear: This is a special episode of The War on Cars. I’m Sarah Goodyear. As you may have heard, New York City has finally started its congestion pricing program. There are some significant exemptions and plenty of fine print, but the basic deal is that car drivers will now pay a $9 congestion fee to enter the central business district of Manhattan south of 60th Street during peak daytime traffic hours. They’ll be charged $2.25 during overnight, off-peak times.

Sarah: The money will go to the Metropolitan Transportation Authority for much-needed capital improvements to the subway, bus and commuter rail systems. This has been a long time coming—since Mayor Mike Bloomberg floated the idea in 2007, to be exact. Even when the tolling cameras were all set to be turned on in June of 2024, Governor Kathy Hochul suddenly paused the program in a last-ditch political move that looked like it was pandering to suburban commuter districts in the hopes of saving the Democrats some congressional seats in the November election.

Sarah: But after the election was over, Hochul hit the go button again, and on January 5, the tolling cameras finally turned on. Cities around the world—especially in North America—are watching carefully to see how this goes, and if it could work in other places. We’re not completely out of the woods yet. Several lawsuits opposing the program are still dragging on, and Donald Trump has said he’s ready to kill it when he takes office.

Sarah: We knew that the local mainstream press would be out in force interviewing drivers and elevating the voices of those against the toll. We knew that because the New York press corps has a long history of putting the 10 percent of people who commute by car in New York above the 90 percent who don’t. So we went out on congestion pricing’s first weekday morning and talked to some people who weren’t driving. I stood at the corner of Christie Street near where the Manhattan Bridge bike lane lets out, and Doug took up a position on Second Avenue at 60th Street, at the northeast edge of the congestion relief zone. Some of the people we talked with were random New Yorkers, but mostly we heard from advocates who knew we would be there and showed up in the freezing cold to talk about why they were so excited about the launch of this historic program. It was a good reminder that congestion pricing isn’t just some abstract policy or political football. It’s about making the lives of millions of people in the New York City area better. Here’s what some of them told us.

Doug Gordon: You’re on a Citi Bike. Tell me what you think about congestion pricing.

Commuter: I think it’s great.

Doug: Why do you think it’s great?

Commuter: I mean, it’s just civilized. I’ve been in this city for 17 years, and it got every year more congested. I mean, I bike and walk and take the subway as the last resort, but when I need a cab or an Uber, you get stuck in traffic. And it’s just fair enough that a big city like New York has congestion pricing.

Doug: Have you noticed any difference today? It’s just day one.

Commuter: Not yet. [laughs]

Doug: What are you hoping will happen?

Commuter: Well, I hope to see a difference. Also for biking, you know, because biking you go through cars that are stuck in traffic, and hopefully the traffic will be more fluid.

Samir Lavingia: I’m Samir Lavingia. I live in Midtown Manhattan.

Doug: Okay. Today is the first weekday commute of congestion pricing. What do you think?

Samir Lavingia: It’s really hard to tell, it’s so early. I think it’ll take some time for people to learn not to drive into midtown Manhattan. You would think they would have learned from decades of doing it. But, you know, I think it’ll take some time. But I definitely feel that it’s been easier to cross the street than usual. I’ve been seeing less blocked crosswalks. I think there’s less traffic. So, you know, I’m excited about what’s gonna happen.

Doug: What in your mind are kind of the top two or three benefits of congestion pricing?

Samir Lavingia: For me personally, the main benefits are gonna be around the traffic reduction. It’s gonna mean that we’re going to have better emergency response times, fewer ambulances stuck in traffic. It means that we’re gonna have fewer crosswalks blocked, and it’ll just be easier to get around.

Doug: Sounds good. And what do you do? Tell our listeners what you do.

Samir Lavingia: For work? I work at Open New York. It’s a pro-housing organization, trying to get more housing built in the and in New York State. And then on the side, I’m also the Transportation Alternatives Manhattan Activist Committee co-chair. So I’ve been involved in this fight for a while. My first foray into congestion pricing in New York was in May of 2019, just a few months after I moved here. I was on a New York One town hall about congestion pricing.

Samir Lavingia: And one thing that I think has changed a lot in the recent few years is that this proposal was meant to raise funds for the MTA, which I think it will do. But over the last few years, I think the message has really shifted to not be a sole focus on the fundraising, but also on the impacts on congestion, which I think is huge. I lived in London and Singapore, two places that have congestion pricing. And, you know, my mom and I, when we wanted to go downtown, we had a car, and when we wanted to go there, we would honestly decide to take the bus because we didn’t want to pay the £15 fee. So I think that’ll happen here, and I think we’ll see huge traffic reductions and I think it’ll be great for the city.

Charlie Todd: My name is Charlie Todd, and I am a resident of the congestion relief zone.

Doug: Very nice. Specifically, you don’t have to give your address, but what neighborhood?

Charlie Todd: I live in Hell’s Kitchen. I live just a few blocks south of the gantries, so just within the tolling district.

Doug: And full disclosure, former guest of The War on Cars.

Charlie Todd: That’s right. Happy to be back, Doug.

Doug: Tell me what you think about this auspicious day, the first weekday commute of congestion pricing.

Charlie Todd: So Doug, I’m so excited about today. I’ve been waiting for it for a long time. I counted down to the first car on early Sunday morning with a lot of other advocates. And today, I’m just taking a walk, observing traffic. Honestly, it seems like business as usual, which is fine. People are paying. You know, maybe when they get their E-Z Pass bill in a month or two, they might reconsider their behavior. But right now, we just got a stream of $9 and $1.50 cabs and $20-something dollar trucks that are just parading into the congestion relief zone. But I would say overall, traffic is moving. Bike lane is certainly moving right here where we are. And I walked my kids to school this morning like I do every morning, and I felt like it was maybe about 13 percent quieter, maybe 13 percent less pollution and 13 percent less traffic violence.

Doug: That’s a very specific percentage number right there.

Charlie Todd: [laughs] That’s what I’m told it was. But my morning stroll after I dropped my kids off is I walked down 60th Street where the dividing line is, and I intercepted two different news crews. So I did an interview with ABC-7 and NBC-4. ABC was on Broadway. NBC was across the street from where we are now on Second Avenue. And I just saw them interviewing people in their cars and walked up and said, “Hey, do you want to talk to a pedestrian?” They were like, “Oh. Yeah, wow! Sure.”

Doug: You know, we don’t have any pedestrians who watch our programs, right? Yeah.

Charlie Todd: Yeah, we didn’t notice all the pedestrians on the sidewalk. We’re just looking for the angry people in the cars. But they were quite nice. And I got a nice interview in, so maybe I’ll be on the news. We’ll see.

Charlie Todd: But I’ll say, Doug, one point I want to make today. The thing that’s frustrated me so much in the last week is the rhetoric from New Jersey, and particularly the rhetoric from Josh Gottheimer, the representative in Congress from New Jersey. He’s been talking a lot about the lungs of the children in New Jersey. What about our children getting asthma? What about the children in New Jersey and the pollution and their precious lungs? And my response to that is: what about my kids’ lungs? I live here. Everybody from your state is trying to drive to where I live and pollute my neighborhood. I’m not trying to drive to your neighborhood. I haven’t had a car in 25 years. 83 percent of us don’t have a car. We’re not driving to New Jersey. And when we do, the two times a year I have a rental car and I have to go through the state of New Jersey—not even trying to stay there, just going through—I pay a lot of tolls. So all you guys can pay $9 if you want to come to my neighborhood. Your kids’ lungs are gonna be okay because we’re not going to your neighborhood.

Doug: And to call it out for what it is, which is bullshit. Josh Gottheimer and Phil Murphy and the congestion pricing opponents who do not live here never seem to be all that concerned about children’s lungs until drivers were gonna be charged $9 to drive into Manhattan.

Charlie Todd: That’s exactly right. Governor Murphy is widening highways in the entrance to the Holland Tunnel. I don’t think he cares about the kids’ lungs who live over on that side of the river by the highways that he’s widening. Yeah, the whole environmental review. Like, we’re trying to reduce car usage. Like, what more do you need to know? We’re trying to get less fossil fuels spewed into the air. It’s not complicated.

Chris Sanders: So I’m Chris Sanders. I’ve been living in Harlem for the last almost 15 years, and then I just moved to Midtown, the Herald Square area. And it’s basically the same except, you know, now my partner has a car, so occasionally we use that to drive out of town. But we both support congestion pricing, because for me it’s about getting all of these fixes to the subway in Harlem and the Bronx and expanding it more, because those people are gonna use it the most to come down and do jobs that are gonna benefit everyone else. And they do not have the money to spend on a car when the rent is so high. Like, I don’t know where people think that, oh, we’re hurting poor people. They can’t—with the congestion pricing because, like, the reality is that in Harlem and the Bronx, at least where I am from, like, no one drives. No one drives except for a few people, but they’re usually making a lot more than the rest.

Chris Sanders: And look, I want them to fix the subway. Some of the subways don’t have elevators. Some of them are in serious need of repair. And then the Second Avenue subway would be amazing because the traffic on 125th is spectacular. [laughs] It’s so spectacular. Yeah, you cannot—at this time, you probably are, you know, puttering along. We just need less cars from—we just need less of them. People? Yes, leave your car at home if you can.

Alex Duncan: My name is Alex Duncan. I live in Astoria here in New York City.

Doug: And how did you get here today?

Alex Duncan: I got here by my e-bike, right across the Queensboro Bridge. And despite the snow, it was a nice, easy, peaceful commute.

Doug: Did you notice anything different here on the first weekday commute of congestion pricing?

Alex Duncan: You know, I did. I was paying specific attention, looking at a lot of license plates, trying to see which cars I thought were what I call necessary vehicles and unnecessary vehicles. And just as a purely anecdotal, very unscientific observation, it seems like the ratio between necessary and unnecessary vehicles has shifted quite a bit. The unnecessary ones have dropped off considerably, and most of it seems to be now taxis, work delivery trucks, tradesmen, things like that. Those are necessary vehicles, of course.

Doug: And you were deeply involved in a lot of the protests this summer following Governor Hochul’s pause of congestion pricing. You organized a number of rallies pretty much every weekend over the summer. I spoke at one of them. What motivated you to get so involved?

Alex Duncan: Well, what motivated me is that this is sort of a landmark issue. We’re not arguing about a toll here. Like, New York—Manhattan is ringed by tolls already, and nobody’s complaining about it. Nobody’s fighting about the Midtown Tunnel toll, which is just a little south of where we are right now. I’ve never seen anyone fight about it. So we’re not fighting about a toll here. We’re fighting about the philosophical principle of whether cars should dominate the streetscape. In this city. That’s the real fight, and I really think that this is the moment where that philosophical alignment and our sense of priorities is gonna change in the city. It’s similar to the smoking ban in restaurants and stuff. When that passed, it wasn’t necessarily immediate, but over time, looking back on it now, it was a radical change in not only how much people smoked in bars and restaurants, but how much they smoked everywhere, right?

Alex Duncan: Like, you just do not see that many people smoking in New York. You still see some. You can do it if you want. It’s a free country. You know, you can still smoke a cigarette. It’s just you see much less because we put the idea, the cultural idea in people’s heads that it’s kind of unacceptable and you’re kind of an asshole. [laughs]

Doug: And that if you want to do it, it’s gonna cost a little more than it was before because we raised taxes on it.

Alex Duncan: Exactly. People are motivated by cost and what they think others think of them for doing something. So you really want to hit both of those two metrics, which congestion pricing sort of does. I mean, we’re sort of changing the narrative and saying, “Listen, you’re causing all these obvious negative externalities with your car, so we do kind of think you’re a bit of an asshole. But we’re also gonna make it a little more expensive for you.” And hopefully over time, we’ll look back on it and we’ll see a lot less driving everywhere, not just in specific places.

Doug: What do you think a year from now, do you think the conversation will change around congestion pricing? Right now we’re still in this sort of will it work? You know, we think it’s gonna work as the advocates. We know from other cities that it has. What’s gonna happen?

Alex Duncan: Yeah, you want to talk?

Commuter: They need to stop it, bro.

Doug: Why do they need to stop it?

Commuter: Because it’s too much money that the city is getting already.

Doug: Like, in what form? You got your E-Z Pass in your hand.

Commuter: Yeah, I just used it. I do the George Washington Bridge.

Doug: And why are you driving today?

Commuter: To drop my friend at the airport.

Doug: Okay. And do you drive regularly?

Commuter: Yes, I do. And I’ll be trying to avoid this, but they need to figure out a way to add it to Google to avoid the—the tolls.

Alex Duncan: Just out of curiosity, how much was the plane cost?

Commuter: Oh, I’m not sure.

Alex Duncan: [laughs]

Doug: Well, I don’t want to hold it up. Thank you.

Commuter: But they need to figure it out on Google.

Alex Duncan: Okay.

Doug: Love it. Love it.

Alex Duncan: Yeah.

Doug: I Love that. Because it’s like, I don’t know. You’re paying to drive your friend to the airport, or you’re not paying to drive your friend to the airport. He could be taking a taxi for $50 to $100, right?

Alex Duncan: Yeah, exactly. No, he’s saving money either way. And it’s also, the airport’s not that close to here, you know? Like, he’s gonna use a lot of public infrastructure on the way there that we’ve spent all this money building so that he can drive his friend to the airport. I think it’s—most people would not find it arguable that you should actually have to pay a little to use public res—everybody else is paying. You know, the people on the bus, the people on the train, you know, everybody else is paying for the infrastructure, but drivers somehow have gotten this into their heads that they don’t have to pay for the roads that they use. You know, there’s a basic flaw in the reasoning here.

Doug: All right, back to that question. Like, what’s the conversation that we’re gonna be having a year from now? How will it change?

Alex Duncan: Well, it’s interesting because I think it’s—the program is obviously going to be a success because the metrics are so easy, you know? Just removing cars from the road is so easy because the road is completely clogged with cars, so there’s nowhere that it can go other than down, you know? Which of course we are going to see. I think the real problem, the real problem with the conversation, the real problem with messaging is that the money will go towards things that people don’t really see. You know, it’s very hard to see service improvements in the subway. Like, you just don’t have a high enough perspective to know that, like, oh, that thing that would have broken if they hadn’t done congestion pricing didn’t break, and then I wasn’t delayed on my train. You can’t see things that don’t happen, you know? So I hope at some point the conversation, or at least the conversation on the MTA side, changes towards prioritizing big, easy-to-understand ways that the money is spent. It’s like, you know, like, the Second Avenue subway extension is a great example, right? Like, people understand that. It’s like, okay, there’s a physical train line that this money is going towards.

Alex Duncan: But just in a general sense, I think the conversation is gonna always get more pro-congestion pricing as time goes on.

Steve: Yeah, I know about congestion pricing, and I know it started today. And it’s not really gonna affect me much because whenever I come into Manhattan I use public transportation anyway. And even though I don’t live in Manhattan, I understand why they have to do it. And in the long run, I probably think it’s probably a good idea.

Sarah: Great, thanks. And you live in Brooklyn or where?

Steve: No, I live upstate in Peekskill. When I come into Manhattan, I take Metro North.

Sarah: All right. Well, and if you use any form of transit, this—you know, the money from the pricing is gonna go into the MTA.

Steve: That’s what is supposed to happen. Let’s hope it does, because they have to improve the subways, and public transportation is the way to go. It is. They’re right. It’s too crowded in Manhattan. It is. It’s too crowded in all of the city. But I understand the outer boroughs, they need the cars to get around a little better. So I understand.

Sarah: Can I ask your name?

Steve: Steve.

Sarah: All right, Steve from Peekskill. Thanks very much.

Steve: You’re welcome.

Rich Miller: So I’m Rich Miller. Live in downtown Brooklyn, and use a bicycle pretty much to get around almost all the time in New York City. Guess I’ll just say on congestion pricing, I’m happy that it finally got started here. New York City is now the first city in the Western Hemisphere to have congestion pricing, which is a big deal. And hopefully others in the Western Hemisphere will follow us on this.

Sarah: What do you think are gonna be the personal benefits for you that you’re gonna experience as a cyclist, as a New Yorker, as somebody who presumably uses transit sometimes?

Rich Miller: I’m certainly looking forward to see, especially as I’m getting on in years, using that extra congestion pricing money to expedite elevators and senior-friendly improvements at all our subway stations. And with respect to our streets, I’m just hoping we will see them be a lot calmer.

Sarah: So what would you say to the haters? What would you say to people who are just angry about this, who think it’s a money grab or whatever they think, you know? What’s your response?

Rich Miller: In addition to giving it a chance, I would say join us in pushing the MTA to get these improvements done as quickly as possible that they say will come as a result of congestion pricing. I think it’s something that everyone in the city would want. And actually, you know, if you’re looking for areas of mutual interest, do that with us.

Noel Hidalgo: My name is Noel Hidalgo. I’m a resident of Greenpoint for 20 years, and I moved to Greenpoint as a Volkswagen van owner and an owner of many, many motorcycles and Vespas. And the selling point actually was a friend of mine who said, “Hey, this neighborhood is really conveniently located to the BQE and the Queens Midtown Tunnel. So if you’re ever looking to get into the city or get out of the city, you have really quick access.” And it’s perfectly designed, actually, for a car. Conveniently enough, it really is designed for an automotive user, like, someone who’s in a vehicle, not on a bike, not a pedestrian, not a public transit rider.

Noel Hidalgo: And within the first year, there was one of the many casualties of McGuinness Boulevard. And I realized that that could have been me just crossing the street and could have been killed. And that—I mean, that was one of the first of several incidents realizing that I’m living in a neighborhood that isn’t necessarily designed for humans, but it’s designed for vehicles, and that should change. And it was like, oh my God, like, yes, this is something that I want to dedicate my advocacy and my spare time in fighting for is making sure that the streets in this beautiful city that we live in, which predates the car, which is very, very walkable, very cyclable, and it’s designed with public transit in mind because that’s what made this city great, I’m gonna fight for that. And so I’ve spent the last 20 years advocating for bike lanes and safe street infrastructure, joined the Open Data Movement and founded a small nonprofit, BetaNYC, which tries to get all the nerds involved in thinking through how do we change our city, and how do we use data and advocate for it. And finally, we got that at the stroke of midnight on Sunday! So it’s amazing.

Sarah: Yeah, it really is incredible. I can’t believe that we’ve gotten here. So you went out and celebrated as the clock struck 12 and everything changed?

Noel Hidalgo: Yeah. I was recruited by Kathy, which I will have to say …

Sarah: Kathy Park Price of Transportation Alternatives. Brooklyn Advocate.

Noel Hidalgo: She was looking for someone who was willing to drive in from Brooklyn and have their car decorated on one of the coldest nights. And I said, “Sure, like, we have a car.” We’ve had to have and use this car for my son’s medical appointments, because we live still in a somewhat of a transit desert, and the hospitals are located in transit deserts on the east side. And it is absolutely convenient, because our city has been engineered around a car, to use a car to get from Greenpoint to the medical centers on the east side. So I said, “Well, let’s use this car for good. Let’s celebrate the congestion pricing, because what it’s gonna do is gonna transform our streets.”

Sarah: What strikes me is that I’ve talked to three people today, and all of you are car owners, and all of you support this idea of congestion pricing. What do you think is in it for drivers?

Noel Hidalgo: So as someone who has spent the last two and a half years, who has taken a young toddler and his caretaker and his parents around to countless medical appointments, it’s literally the alleviation of congestion. One, it’s gonna make the roads more accessible for emergency services vehicles that cannot get through in this era of congestion. And two, it’s gonna build an accessible subway system, which should have happened decades ago. It should have been implemented upon its first design. But we’re hopefully gonna get there. And I hope that my son, when he has kids, he doesn’t have to have a car to get around the city, because there’s gonna be public transportation investments that are made when he’s a kid that’ll pay off for when he’s older.

Seth Solomonow: I’m Seth Solomonow. I live in Prospect Heights, Brooklyn.

Doug: Okay, so you’re not just some random bike commuter. You have an inside baseball take on congestion pricing.

Seth Solomonow: I have a long history with it. I work for the New York City Department of Transportation. During the last go around on congestion pricing, we weren’t successful but, you know, we sort of dug up a lot of the arguments that were used this time around, but also that were used for a lot of the bike wars over the years. But let me tell you, I mean, it’s a real anti climax, you know, like all these years later to come out and it’s finally happening. There’s an unreality about it. But kind of the most interesting thing is how normal everything is, and how it’s really hard to point out what’s changed and what’s different.

Seth Solomonow: And it reminds me of some of the biggest bike battles we had. Like, whether it was, like, Grand Street in Manhattan or Times Square. Kent Avenue was a really big thing. I remember being really worried on some of our biggest projects, like, what if we change things? What if we do these things and it goes horribly wrong? And it’s all this traffic and, you know, it winds up being really—you know, kind of backfiring. But then when it actually happens, you kind of go out and it’s kind of boring when you go out and yeah, there’s some traffic, yeah, there’s some people biking. People are going about their days. And it looks like it’s hard to explain to somebody what’s really, really changed.

Seth Solomonow: But I do think that this is different. I feel like this is really historic, and I think we haven’t fully appreciated the changes. And it might take some time to really kind of, you know, to see the impact of it. Now I’m not sure you can just go out on day one and say—you know, I think over time, you know, transportation isn’t just about kind of like, lanes on the street. It’s not just about, you know, traffic signals and timing them correctly or not, or turn lanes, that sort of thing. It’s really about choices. And people really factor in their head, like, if parking is free, I will park my car for free. If the cost of a ticket is less than parking my car in a garage, I might just leave it out there indefinitely. If the bridge is free, I’ll take that bridge and not the tunnel that has a toll on it or the other bridge that has a toll on it.

Seth Solomonow: So once people start making these calculations, they start making different choices. And I feel like that’s kind of the underappreciated part that’s really hard to talk about congestion pricing, that it’s a mental exercise. Like, it’s an abstract exercise. But it’s really real with people, and there’s money involved with people right now. And I really appreciate that the money thing is really—it’s serious for people. $9 a day for five days a week times four weeks a month, times 12 months. You know, it adds up. It’s not nothing. And that’s why I think that it’s really kind of a long game. And I think that it’s not just about the first day, that advocates policy leaders, political leaders, they really need to be thinking about how to keep this going and showing benefits and talking about the benefits, and helping people realize what has changed. Because nobody likes to pay for something for today and for the next two years for the promise of something, some benefit further down the line. People really want to see a change today, but I think we need to really work on the storytelling and talk about how things are changing.

Seth Solomonow: I know the MTA has said that they’re gonna come forward with data and they’re gonna share how this is impacting travel times, but I think even that it’s not gonna convince a lot of people. The changes might be so small that it’s gonna be indistinguishable for somebody in a car or not in a car. Hopefully, the trips are gonna get faster for cars because there’s gonna be fewer cars. But that’s kind of the promise of it, in a way, that this was supposed to reduce congestion. So if there’s less congestion—it’s unclear with a $9 toll, if that’s going to be detectable, if people are actually gonna see that benefit.

Doug: I think that’s spot on in terms of what advocates have to do, because I think there’s a tendency in Democratic circles is that you push for a good policy and maybe it succeeds, and then you walk away and just hope that everybody sees the benefits. And you don’t continue that storytelling and that PR push. And the opponents never let up, so we have to really keep extolling the virtues, because they won’t be perceptible for a lot of people for a long time.

Seth Solomonow: Correct. And every day a lot of people are gonna be paying that toll, so they’re gonna see it. And they’re not seeing it yet, but they’re gonna be seeing it. And I have the expectation that they’re gonna start saying, “Hey, what’s going on here? Isn’t somebody gonna do something about this?” You know, the politics could change around this, and my biggest concern is we’ve implemented congestion pricing today, but we haven’t really said, “Well, if you ride the M-15, here’s how much more bus service you’re gonna get. If you ride 1, 2, 3, train, here’s how much more service you’re gonna get. We’re building these new stations. We’re adding—” you know, we haven’t explained to transit commuters what they’re getting in return for it. We haven’t explained to pedestrians what the benefit is for them. We’re not offering anything to them.

Seth Solomonow: So the people who are already for congestion pricing are—they’re already sold, and they think that they’ve won. But this is—we really need to gird for a long fight because this could become—there’s gonna be a snafu of some kind. There’s gonna be some type of hiccup or quirk. So I feel like, just like we were during the bike backlash, we need to be not just fighting back aggressively—and I think we need to do that, but I think we also need to be telling a really good story. And, you know, the MTA and the city and, like, all the transportation partners, they need to come up with a strategy to sort of put real changes on the street, on people’s commutes, like, on people’s sidewalks, in people’s neighborhoods that really show how congestion pricing can be not just the thing, but a complement that makes other things possible.

Kirby Kersels: My name is Kirby Kersels, and I live in the Lenox Hill neighborhood of the Upper East Side.

Doug: And you are a member of Families for Safe Streets, and you’re out here today. Can you talk a little bit about Families for Safe Streets and why you’re a member?

Kirby Kersels: So Families for Safe Streets is a street safety organization that is dedicated to ending traffic violence. And it’s made up of people who have either lost loved ones to traffic violence or have been injured themselves by traffic violence, or who, like myself, care for someone who has been injured by traffic violence. And we have both a support network for people who have been impacted, and then also we advocate for proven strategies to reduce traffic violence.

Doug: You can tell me whatever details you want, of course. Can you tell me about your family and how you were impacted?

Kirby Kersels: Of course. Of course. So my partner, Emily Gossiaux, was run over by a truck while riding her bike to work. And she was in a coma for six weeks, and when she woke up, she was completely blind. This obviously has impacted her life and the life of those around her greatly. And it’s why I’m here today fighting for a safer city for all.

Doug: How does congestion pricing factor into Families for Safe Streets work and safety in general?

 

Kirby Kersels: I mean, it’s really simple: The less cars you have on the street, the safer it is. In London, for example, after they started congestion pricing, traffic crashes fell by over a third, which is just—I mean, why wouldn’t we want that here? We have an epidemic of traffic violence. Vision Zero has more or less stalled out. You know, we need to do something to change that, and congestion pricing is that.

Doug: You mentioned that Vision Zero has more or less stalled out. There’s been some notable silence from the mayor and even the governor whose policy this is, who is responsible for the policy. What do you think about the elected officials who are just kind of being quiet this week?

Kirby Kersels: Of course, it’s very, very disappointing. And it’s also, I think, incredibly short sighted. Everywhere that congestion pricing has been implemented, there is what I think is termed—I’m sure you’re aware of—the valley of death, where public opinion is lowest right before it’s implemented and then rapidly rises afterwards as everyone, including people who drive, benefit from it with faster commutes and less time in their car. And to not seize that moment and to not be out here celebrating with the people who have spent so many—I mean, literally some of us, not me, but some of us decades fighting for this is, I would say, almost political malpractice.

Doug: How was Families for Safe Streets involved in the congestion pricing fight?

Kirby Kersels: So I myself was not very involved with Families for Safe Streets until congestion pricing was paused in June of last year. And that was really this, I don’t know, dare I say, a radicalizing moment for me because my partner Emily had been failed first by the government by allowing a street to exist where she could be run over by a truck. And then here was a policy that would make buses faster, and buses are the most accessible form of transit in this city. And it would also bring a ton of elevators to a largely inaccessible subway system. And here was then the governor, Kathy Hochul, you know, essentially saying, “No, we don’t care about people like you.” And that was the second failure that, you know, the city has taken—has altered her life forever, and then can’t even try to make it better for her. And that was just—I mean, it’s still enraging that, you know, no one really seemed to care that—or not no one, but that the people who had the power didn’t care.

Doug: Let’s look forward to a year from now. Do you have any predictions about where things will head?

Kirby Kersels: I don’t want to be too optimistic, but I think it’s gonna be a success. And I really, really, really hope that politicians, both here in New York City as well as in New York state can seize the moment and deliver both long-term results, which will take time, which is the infrastructure upgrades that will be funded by congestion pricing, but also taking space back for the vast, vast, vast majority of us who don’t have cars, who walk, who bike, who take the bus around, and making the city a more pleasant place for all.

Paul Krikler: I’m Paul Krikler. I live on Roosevelt Island.

Doug: So today is day one of weekday commutes for congestion pricing. What do you think? How’s it going so far?

Paul Krikler: I feel great about it. We went around yesterday looking at a few places around 60 Street. Anecdotal, it looked like there were less cars. It looked great. The buses were zipping around quicker, they seemed to be more frequent. Looked great to me.

Doug: And you are a volunteer activist. You serve on your community board. So how have you been involved in the congestion pricing fight?

Paul Krikler: The fight’s been won by so many people like me. We’ve all gone along to protest, to march, to lobby our elected officials, to go to meetings to speak. And here we are now. It worked.

Doug: So if you really think about it, congestion pricing is just a toll. And the only thing that’s really different about it is that it’s a toll for a geographic area, not a bridge or a tunnel. This is a thing that exists in London, Singapore, other cities—Milan. What does it say that we have to fight so hard for something that at its core is so basic?

Paul Krikler: I think it’s the same thing we have to fight so hard for with other things that we fight for, which is that it’s very, very hard to change the entrenched system, whatever it is. So we have a city now which is built for cars. It’s very hard to change what’s in existence already. People will cling on for dear life, and it’s harder to get them to unpry their fingers from keeping on for that.

Doug: Okay, our listeners will notice your accent. Where are you from?

Paul Krikler: Originally from London. I lived in London ’til about 25 years ago, so I’m a New Yorker now as well.

Doug: So you have not been in London—or living in London, I should say—for the congestion fee there, but I’m sure you have experience with it. What’s that like?

Paul Krikler: I think the simple thing I could say is that like anything, when you have a big change, it takes six months, nine months, twelve months, and then it becomes part of what the city lives with. So it’ll become absorbed in no time at all. Come back in a year and a half, two years time, this will be part of how the city works.

Sarah: There you have it. Here’s hoping Paul is right. That’s it for this special episode of The War on Cars. Thanks to everyone who talked with us and everyone who is working to make the streets out there safer and quieter and calmer. I’m Sarah Goodyear, and on behalf of my co-host Doug Gordon, this is The War on Cars.